With points similar to this floating around, I comprehend why there could be some reputable confusion bordering the topic, and also why people that invest even more time online than in the training center may have a suggestion in their heads that the dual knee bend is some kind of antique technique that is not utilized in modern training while we foolish Americans still hold on to it.
As well as this week, a person sent me a connect to an online forum article in which an individual composed, “The primary technique takeaway was that the 2nd pull as well as suspended 2nd pull are extremely rigid legged, hips back and no knee rebend rubbish with hips coming forward. Similar to Klokov things,” when relaying just what he had learned in a seminar with Vladislav Lukanin.
Sadly, this complication, and the suggestion that the dual knee bend is some kind of raising strategy that can be performed or otherwise by choice, is also kept up by some trainers in various good manners, such as by instructing the activity itself.
A couple years before this, German nationwide trainer Frank Mantek gave a center at the Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, as well as obviously claimed that they (the Germans) “not do the dual knee bend.”.
One that was merely sent to me was pertaining to the dual knee bend or scoop. This is a subject I have gone over in bloody information in a number of locations over the last 10 years or so, including in each of the 3 editions of my book, as well as in my degree 1 workshops. This current quote advised me of a couple conversations I’ve had or things I’ve heard relating to the dual knee bend, so I figured I would certainly toss this together and see once more if I set the record straight.
I get a great deal of emails as well as texts throughout my days. The fantastic aspect of this is that I have an organic network of home owner feeding me things they’ve located in their time surfing the net so I do not need to hang around considering anything myself– I merely get sent the ludicrous, the confusing as well as the interesting and have the luxury to select just what to neglect and even what to obtain inflamed by.
What is the Dual Knee Bend?
What exactly this resembles (i.e. the precise angles of the shin, knee, hip and even trunk and whether the knees remain bent to the same degree, prolong somewhat, and even bend slightly as they move forward) will certainly vary among lifters based on percentages and also technological design, yet the very same basic motion will certainly always occur. The movement will certainly be less pronounced in lifters that flare their knees out to the sides considerably just due to the fact that the knees are oriented less forward (see Max Lang here as an example of this).
First, let’s explain just what the double knee bend is so we’re all on the same page: Throughout the pull of the take or tidy, the knees expand during the first pull, bringing the bar up the leg till getting to a point at which the shins are nearing upright, the knees are still rather bent, the hips pressed back, and even the shoulders in front of bench. As bench moves up the upper leg, the lifter’s hips expand, bringing the shoulders back and even the hips ahead … and even the knees for a short while remain in that very same a little curved location and also move ahead under the bar before finishing their extension together with the last expansion of the hips.
As I’ve been attempting to get across for years, the dual knee bend is a natural phenomenon, as well as impossible to avoid if the lifter’s positions, timing, and even rate are even approaching proper. In order for the lifter to extend the hips (bring the trunk upright and at some point behind upright, the hips must progress over the feet– this is an extremely straightforward problem of keeping the equilibrium of the barbell-body system over the base. Simply puts, it’s the body’s quite strong and even quite natural need to not tip over.
You Can’t Escape It.
If you’re not sure what I imply by this, obtain up and stand in a substitute mid-thigh suspended placement– shins approximately upright, hips back, as well as shoulders in front of the knees (merely like if you had a bar in your hands and were about to start the 2nd pull of a nab or tidy). From this location, merely hop vertically as high as you could without a countermovement and even pay focus to what your knees do, or have someone view you and also discuss– without any type of objective on your part, your knees will certainly move forward as your trunk moves right into an upright positioning as part of the effort to drive vertically against the ground.
Every one of them is doing the exact same point with rather various timing and even angles due to technological variant and proportions. There’s nothing even more I can do for you if you desire to argue that.
Two basic factors come right into play with respect to the movement of the knees (in addition to the forward motion of the hips discussed over). Some of the hamstrings group crosses both the hip and also the knee joints– that implies their contraction both extends the hip and flexes the knee. When The hamstrings fire off that last extension initiative to complete the higher explosion of the lift, the tightening is likewise attempting to flex the knee, which is currently in a partly bent location.
If the hips were prolonged without the hips moving onward from their originating position at the beginning of the 2nd pull (i.e. back behind the feet), the lifter-barbell’s center of gravity would certainly move much behind the feet and even the lifter would certainly tip over backwards. Simple.
It’s Real– I’m Not Just a Crotchety Old Bastard.
I’m sure some of you still don’t believe me and just assume I’m some crotchety old bastard that hates all these new young kids coming in and even destroying my sport (for the document, I’m 35– a gal who attended my workshop last weekend stated, “I expected you to be old and even strict, however you’re young and ridiculous.”), exactly how could these first-rate lifters and also instructors be incorrect and also your dumb American ass be right, and also that I’m simply visualizing this whole dual knee bend thing since I overdosed on my high blood pressure medicine as well as the swelling of my prostate is hindering the blood flow to my mind.
So here are some sequential structures of numerous world-class weightlifters nabbing to reveal specifically what I’m defining as well as confirm that it’s not in my head. Keep in mind that I’ve consisted of both Vladislav Lukanin as well as Dmitri Klokov, 2 lifters the web seems to think do not perform the double knee bend according to the consisted of quote, and Max Lang, an existing German lifter. Fored example are Kwang Song Kim of North Korea and Xiaojun Lu from China to add some short-legged lifters to the variety and stay clear of any of these ridiculous “Asian lifters do every little thing completely in different ways” arguments. And also ultimately, I tossed in Ilya Ilyin to cover that exasperatingly consistent misconception that he has some type of completely special lifting method that opposes all textbook rules as well as consequently shows that the entire book is wrong.
Currently, provided the term double knee bend is itself rather puzzling. Scoop is probably more effective as it just describes the activity of the knees ahead under the bar. The knees do not actually rebend, as well as when they do, it’s incredibly minimally– it would certainly a lot more accurately be called the temporary cessation of knee flexion during the course of the repositioning of the body system to maintain equilibrium of the barbell-lifter system over the base of support in reaction to the final expansion of the hips in the second pull. That’s a little bit of a mouthful.
How Did We Get So Baffled?
This is in fact the timing I instruct as the starting factor for lifters, and even it will normally change based on proportions and even toughness. As an example, if you consider Lu and also Kim, you’ll see an earlier scoop with a greater level of knee flexion– this is just what a shorter-legged, longer-torsoed lifter will normally do since it changes more of the job of raising the bar to their stronger, much more mechanically-advantaged (practically less mechanically-disadvantaged) legs as opposed to the hips.
Additionally, I do not know what’s going on these days since I have no participation in the area, but a minimum of for a while, some toughness & conditioning organizations and coaches were instructing the double knee bend as an intentional action (due, I believe, to the mistaken interpretation with lift analysis that lifters were deliberately relocating their knees onward under bench) as well as sustaining the complication.
Some of the hamstrings group goes across both the hip and also the knee joints– that implies their contraction both expands the hip as well as bends the knee. From this position, just jump vertically as high as you can without a countermovement and pay focus to exactly what your knees do, or have an individual enjoy you and clarify– without any intent on your component, your knees will certainly move onward as your trunk moves right into a vertical alignment as part of the effort to drive vertically versus the ground. The knees do not really rebend, and when they do, it’s extremely minimally– it would certainly more precisely be called the short-lived cessation of knee flexion during the training course of the repositioning of the body to preserve balance of the barbell-lifter system over the base of assistance in feedback to the final expansion of the hips in the 2nd pull. When Mantek claimed the Germans do not do the dual knee bend any longer, I think he suggested that they do not in fact advise their lifters to move their knees under the bar, which they could have at one factor in the former. When the Russians below stated they would certainly never hear of the double knee bend, I believe they were really referring even more to the term itself; additionally, that because their lifters find out to snag and clean up at young ages with drills, not conceptual instruction, and also given that the double knee bend, as I have actually attempted to explain, is an all-natural, inescapable sensation, it never ever had to be gone over (this doesn’t indicate they have actually never seen it occur or don’t recognize concerning it– it’s written concerning in wonderful information in numerous Russian weightlifting publications and documents).
As I discussed recently, I discuss the dual knee bend in both my book and my seminars, and even in each situation, I aim to plainly make the factor that I would certainly like not to even address it, as it’s ideal enabled to just occur normally by educating lifters the proper positions and also timing in the snag and clean (i.e. wait to blow up till bench is better to mid-thigh, and also in this placement, the shins must be about upright and the shoulders before the bar); however, coaches should recognize the info, and every person nowadays, trainer or otherwise, is starving for in-depth information also when probably unacceptable at an offered phase of advancement.
When international trains are talking with Americans is merely one of communication, I assume the heart of the trouble. When Mantek stated the Germans don’t do the dual knee bend any longer, I presume he suggested that they do not actually instruct their lifters to move their knees under the bar, which they may contend one factor in the former. When the Russians here said they ‘d never ever hear of the double knee bend, I believe they were really referring longer to the term itself; further, that due to the fact that their lifters discover to clean and snag at young ages through drills, not theoretical guideline, as well as since the double knee bend, as I have actually attempted to describe, is an organic, inevitable sensation, it never ever needed to be discussed (this doesn’t suggest they’ve never ever seen it take place or do not know concerning it– it’s covered in great information in many Russian weightlifting publications and even documents). I suspect what Lukanin was trying to get across was a point regarding timing as well as location– you’ll discover that in his lift, he keeps the knees back and even shoulders over the bar much longer than the others (to concerning mid-thigh; Iliyin has similar timing).
From this beginning factor of miscommunication, you then have a prolonged game of telephone as this information gets uploaded and even reposted across the web with each iteration shedding something from the initial and/or gaining an inaccurate interpretation by the poster up until you have individuals hearing complete nonsense and thinking it’s directly from the mouths of some of the globe’s best lifters and also trainers.